Y'know Reg, you cover an awful lot of ground in your little note; but here goes.-)

> I can understand throwing up your hands to the heavens after suffering through folks like Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Bush 1, Clinton, and Bush 2. That really does seem like a long slow ride in a hand-basket to Hell. I leave Carter off the list because I really think the man was a decent human being that wanted to change and improve things. I can understand throwing up your hands to the heavens after suffering through folks like Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Bush 1, Clinton, and Bush 2. That really does seem like a long slow ride in a hand-basket to Hell. I leave Carter off the list because I really think the man was a decent human being that wanted to change and improve things. I can understand throwing up your hands to the heavens after suffering through folks like Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Bush 1, Clinton, and Bush 2. That really does seem like a long slow ride in a hand-basket to Hell. I leave Carter off the list because I really think the man was a decent human being that wanted to change and improve things.

First off, if 'I throw my hands to the heavens', it's because our Creator resides there. We the People are going to suffer through Kerry too, if he turns out to be the American oligarchies new guy. Apart from Reagan and possibly Johnson, none of the presidents(including Carter) were/are adamantly and exclusively American in their orientation. They are Internationalists. And frankly, Kerry will be whatever it takes to be Prez, just as he co-opted Howard Dean's message. Come to think of it so did all the other candidates once it became clear what the Democratic voters were responding to.

The list of presidents you mention covers the last 4 decades Reg. How many of them lied to us just to get elected? How many of them did something entirely contrary to their party platform, or political philosophy(e.g., Clinton co-opting most of the republican agenda)?

But see, herein lies the problem Reg. I don't know you. Chances are even that we'd be great pals. But, I don't know what you value. I don't know if you ever had a Civics class. I don't know if you've lived a cloistered privileged life or you simply had all your sense educated out of you. e.g., Did you know that Malthus is wrong: there's plenty of food, it's just that the greed of man continually creates a distribution problem. Speaking of food, where was the goodness of man at the U.N., that organization dedicated to peace on earth - goodwill to all men, during the food for petro theft program(among others). Need you additional citations?

You see, we probably already have a divergence of opinion based on that example alone. Whereas many would conclude this was just a few isolated 'bad people'; I would conclude that the love of money is the root of all evil and since men have evil hearts,(because God says we are against Him) it is not only, not an isolated event, but to be expected because history is replete with such examples. I base the likelihood of our divergence on my experience observing the U.N. and their patterns of corruption. The history of government is selling dastardly acts as do-gooding, and we probably fundamentally disagree on the nature and duty of government in general. Moving on.

  > The issue I have with what you're saying is that it seems you're giving up and that you have lost faith (or maybe never had any) in your fellow man. I find that outlook intolerable. I don't see that sitting around waiting for Jesus to show up to smite the evildoers is that great a strategy. It sort of lets down the brotherhood of mankind, doesn't it? Which sort of leads me to a much larger question: The issue I have with what you're saying is that it seems you're giving up and that you have lost faith (or maybe never had any) in your fellow man. I find that outlook intolerable. I don't see that sitting around waiting for Jesus to show up to smite the evildoers is that great a strategy. It sort of lets down the brotherhood of mankind, doesn't it? Which sort of leads me to a much larger question: The issue I have with what you're saying is that it seems you're giving up and that you have lost faith (or maybe never had any) in your fellow man. I find that outlook intolerable. I don't see that sitting around waiting for Jesus to show up to smite the evildoers is that great a strategy. It sort of lets down the brotherhood of mankind, doesn't it? Which sort of leads me to a much larger question:

I am not sitting around waiting for Jesus to smite anyone, but I will be pleased at His return - and the sooner the better - and I won't be sorry in the least when He wipes out the armies of the earth and takes control of this planet, while residing in Jerusalem during the millenium. I'm gonna have plenty to answer for, will suffer loss, and will need my tears wiped away but it's decidedly better than the alternative-ignoring Jesus' free gift.

In short, my faith is not in men, it's in Jesus Christ. Not the imitation that's gonna show up as a peace-maker here pretty soon. Mt 24:24* For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. You must have lived a very sheltered life if you still have faith in mankind as a whole. Not that there aren't good individuals(in human terms) but don't you read the papers?

> How do you decide which actions, responsibilities, debts, etc, carry the most weight in this life? Isn't there a purpose to your existence here? One in which you must fulfill certain expectations of your God and all he/she has created? How do you decide which actions, responsibilities, debts, etc, carry the most weight in this life? Isn't there a purpose to your existence here? One in which you must fulfill certain expectations of your God and all he/she has created? How do you decide which actions, responsibilities, debts, etc, carry the most weight in this life? Isn't there a purpose to your existence here? One in which you must fulfill certain expectations of your God and all he/she has created?

Needless to say, I pay the bills I owe, when they come due, if I don't pay cash in the first place. Certainly there is a purpose. Technically, not that that's what any of us do sufficiently, our first purpose is to worship our Creator, Almighty God, and if we are wise, we will trust in His Son Jesus Christ that we may be born again because, 1Ti 2:5* For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;.

I pray, I feed the poor, I help the weak and the innocent, I trust the Lord to prepare my way and hope I respond as He would have me to, to the opportunities He puts before me. As wonderful as this sounds I am just a schmuck in progress. As I have stated before, peoples' response to someone who professes to be born again, no matter how short a time, is to expect us to be sinless instead of realizing we are merely a work in progress growing in the Lord as fast as we relent to His will instead of holding to our own. Which is often a slow process speaking for myself. Thankfully God is faithful, and has never given up on me.

As far as responsibilities, one of my long standing prayers before the Lord is this passage from the Proverbs 30: 7 ¶ Two things have I required of thee; deny me them not before I die: 8 Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me: 9 Lest I be full, and deny thee, and say, Who is the LORD? or lest I be poor, and steal, and take the name of my God in vain.

> I ask this because some people may get the impression your attitude is much the same as a guy who will crash a plane into a building in the name of Allah. I ask this because some people may get the impression your attitude is much the same as a guy who will crash a plane into a building in the name of Allah. I ask this because some people may get the impression your attitude is much the same as a guy who will crash a plane into a building in the name of Allah.

I wonder who those people are?-) They obviously don't know that Allah and God are not one and the same, let alone equal. They're probably the same folks who, regarding crimes in the name of religion, can't make the distinction between Catholicism, Calvinism etc., and simple 'the just shall live by faith' believers like myself. One of the things you doubters should really give some thought to is the question of why one christian sect kills another when the apostle of gentiles, Paul(who taught salvation by grace), no where taught convert or die. My people have been murdered by christians professors for 1600 years or better. Christians around the world are being persecuted and murdered as we speak for professing Jesus is risen from the dead. The only connection I know of is that many muslims make no excuse for their crimes against christians.

These same folks need to learn to recognize the distinctions between Judaism and christianity also.

OH, a tip! during the tribulation, the Law of the Jews will be in effect again, the age of grace will be finished, so you might want to get acquainted with the standard that will be applied from God's point of view. In terms of coming to God --- i.e., on His terms, instead of how you think He should let you come. At the conclusion of the 7 year long tribulation God will be residing in Jerusalem and should you survive it will be helpful to know His rules. Anyone who is truly interested, I would be pleased to mail you better information than I can provide off hand. Including a copy of the scripture.

> The man flying the plane thought it was not an issue because he was doing this in the name of God and would be received by him/her as a faithful child. The man flying the plane thought it was not an issue because he was doing this in the name of God and would be received by him/her as a faithful child. The man flying the plane thought it was not an issue because he was doing this in the name of God and would be received by him/her as a faithful child.

The man flying the plane was doing it out of hatred in the name of a little G god. Scripture teaches about them. I know this isn't taught anymore as it is considered being judgmental, but, 'things that are different, are not the same', and, 'patterns are an indication of things to come'. Just because Allah is called God doesn't mean he is JEHOVAH, Father of Jesus Christ, or any of the other names of God. In fact, if you delve into it you will find that Allah is not a trinity as depicted in the christian and Jewish scripture. And frankly, I wouldn't want anything to do with a God who wasn't confident enough to promote freedom of religion, which me and my kind have promoted since the resurrection(when we weren't busy hiding or running for our lives from pagans or the church). I don't understand why americans are blind to the fact that the vast majority of their rights are associated with the fact that this continent was settled by peoples with a King James in hand and looking for religious freedom; and that, to whatever degree, their allegiance was not to the Koran, or the convert or die murderous principles contained therein. Furthermore, I grant you that many were deists rather than christians but the fact remains that the bible provided a deeply influential underpinning throughout of the colonial and american consciousness until some time in the first half of the 20th century.

> Is there a difference between this idea and your idea that it matters little if we participate in a process which may change the outcome and lives of some people in a beneficial way, because Jesus and his sword will show up to sort things out? Is there a difference between this idea and your idea that it matters little if we participate in a process which may change the outcome and lives of some people in a beneficial way, because Jesus and his sword will show up to sort things out? Is there a difference between this idea and your idea that it matters little if we participate in a process which may change the outcome and lives of some people in a beneficial way, because Jesus and his sword will show up to sort things out?

The sad part of this question is that I can only assume you are serious. I at no point said, don't participate. Essentially, I said that they are both members of an oligarchy that does not represent the best interests of this nation and this nation alone, so it doesn't make any appreciable difference which wins. I would love to see the roughly 40 to 45% of the americans who don't vote every election weigh in.

( Just a side thought, if the folks who make the rules really believed in democracy, they'd put 'none of the above' or some such, on the ballot. At which point I think a great many of the so-called silent majority would weigh in. Perhaps during the follow up 3rd or 4th round primaries we would get more favorable candidates to choose from. Just a thought....)

Some of them got off the bench and voted for Perot. Not because we wanted Perot to win but because we are tired of the same ol' shit choices being foisted upon us. All things being equal, Perot is a billionaire insider but speaking for myself, I just wanted to see my protest vote tabulated for a change. And frankly, since the USA does not practice direct democracy in presidential elections, my vote doesn't actually count unless I vote democrat(Vermont will vote Kerry-hell, our republicans are democrats). Since I don't support neo-conservatism and its big government policies either, who do I vote for that has a chance to win. So tell me how my vote counts.

Finally Reg, I don't view more government programs as beneficial to the American people. In my view, we have way too many giveaways. Not only that, we have too many americans working for government. 40% of our workers work for the federal government in one form or other(contractually or direct civil service). I want less government and more self reliance. I came up hard, all these folks who are smart enough to work the system(& there are millions of them-one of my sisters being one of them) are smart enough to work.

> Sure, the plane thing is much more dramatic and immediately killed about 3000 people. Sure, the plane thing is much more dramatic and immediately killed about 3000 people. Sure, the plane thing is much more dramatic and immediately killed about 3000 people.

So is appealing for 150 anonymous kids.

> Not participating in trying to change things with your vote (your vote=your voice) may kill more people over time. Maybe another 12,000 Iraqis, or 1000 more soldiers, or 300,000 starving mothers and children over 4 years, or maybe 150 kids in this country who just didn't get the right direction because the program they were in was shut down. Does it matter if voting for one politician over another saves or changes for the better just one more life? Not participating in trying to change things with your vote (your vote=your voice) may kill more people over time. Maybe another 12,000 Iraqis, or 1000 more soldiers, or 300,000 starving mothers and children over 4 years, or maybe 150 kids in this country who just didn't get the right direction because the program they were in was shut down. Does it matter if voting for one politician over another saves or changes for the better just one more life? Not participating in trying to change things with your vote (your vote=your voice) may kill more people over time. Maybe another 12,000 Iraqis, or 1000 more soldiers, or 300,000 starving mothers and children over 4 years, or maybe 150 kids in this country who just didn't get the right direction because the program they were in was shut down. Does it matter if voting for one politician over another saves or changes for the better just one more life?

Again, I do participate. Again, the oligarchy is running things, and not in the best interest of americans. Again, your vote does not effect policy, this is not a direct democracy. If you don't get it: there is no direct relationship between your vote and policy when voting for president of the USA. Politicians who look like they might be moving the populace towards changing things significantly end up dead(2 Kennedy's, Malcolm, Doc King and numerous foreigners our government assassinated or made their country a debtor nation through any one of a variety of helpful international banking concerns we support. Censorship is not necessary in america, you know what not to say(well don'tcha Reg?-)). If the economy was so good, why isn't mom or dad staying home with their own kids? The governments answer is to dope our kids into submission when they get antsy from being bored to death from studying 3rd grade curriculum repeatedly through the 8th grade. I say just say no to CPS. Feds paying state governments commisions for removing children from their families among other related crimes against the children, their families and the nations citizenry).

Finally, e.g., lets say three quarters of the silent majority voted in November. At a minimum that would be 30% of the voting population. Further let's say they didn't vote for the established and approved guys of our vaunted two party system. Now who would they vote for. I certainly don't know, but let suppose it was just one 'anybody but Bush/Kerry' candidate. What do you suppose would happen when Bush and Kerry both lost? Bush/Clinton/Bush all got elected with less than 30% of the voting age population. Would all be well with america? I think the next few months would be interesting. Betcha there'd be a lot of death-pools runnin' unless it was a safety valve Perot type!-)

> Seems a few minutes taken from your day to vote can have a far more immediate impact on your fellow man than months of prayer and waiting for a savior and his sword. Seems a few minutes taken from your day to vote can have a far more immediate impact on your fellow man than months of prayer and waiting for a savior and his sword. Seems a few minutes taken from your day to vote can have a far more immediate impact on your fellow man than months of prayer and waiting for a savior and his sword.

How old are you? Immediate impact? Big deal, the stock market fluctuates.-))) You're not taking this war on terror serious are you? Do you know anyone who is? Everybody I see is going on as if 911 never happened, apart from complaining about how most of the security is silly. I deal with a lot of flyers. Thinking people realize that the psychology has changed; that reinforcing the cockpit doors, keeping them locked and providing armed pilots and air marshals will solve most security problems. Do you think there's even one Jihadist that's wants to announce he's hijacking an airplane in the USA anymore? Before I'd make that announcement, I'd be asking Allah for an eternal daily supply of virgins, in triplicate.

> There is a bit of selfishness to that approach I think. Sort of saying "Well, my God will save me so I can play in my garden while you worry and try to help mankind." There is a bit of selfishness to that approach I think. Sort of saying "Well, my God will save me so I can play in my garden while you worry and try to help mankind." There is a bit of selfishness to that approach I think. Sort of saying "Well, my God will save me so I can play in my garden while you worry and try to help mankind."

Perhaps from your point of view. But isn't one of the knocks on many christians that they vote in some fairly predictable ways. Enough of us are participating to complain about. For myself, who is decidedly not a main line anything: I vote, I help others as directly as I can because I understand I am accountable to the Lord for what I do or don't do. In addition, I take comfort in my Saviors return. If He has not risen from the dead, 'we are of all men most miserable.'. 1 Cor 15 A good chapter dealing with the subject of the gospel including mention of what is known of as the rapture.

> Logically it seems to only benefit those in power to believe that your vote doesn't matter. Logically it seems to only benefit those in power to believe that your vote doesn't matter. Logically it seems to only benefit those in power to believe that your vote doesn't matter.

That makes sense on the surface but I think that we are beyond the point of the oligarchy caring one way or another whether we vote. If need be the facade is going to come down soon. In some ways it already has: the floating of postponing the election; preemptive strikes(very unamerican); but of course, lying to the american people is nothing new.

The last election wasn't the first one to be futsed with. I believe before this election is over it is projected that more than a billion dollars will have been spent to buy votes via advertising and such. Personally, for all the difference it will make, I wish they'd just buy my vote direct: three mil for the Mrs, three mil for me. We could do a lot with 6 mil. Imagine the boost to the economy, woew! Hundreds of millions of dollars aren't donated(sic) without expectation of a personal return. That's anywhere capitalism/politics Reg. I hope Howard Dean put away a bit of that $50 million he pissed away in a matter of weeks. Legally, he could have, y'know!

> Seems that's just what they'd want you to think and feel. Seems that's just what they'd want you to think and feel. Seems that's just what they'd want you to think and feel.

Certainly is convenient, no doubt. Again, the consolidation is far enough along that the powers that be probably aren't concerned whether or not the curtain is pulled back. But again, I suspect many of the folks who don't vote realize there vote is not really a policy referendum involved.

> It's hopeless and useless to try because WE'LL never let you change things. It's hopeless and useless to try because WE'LL never let you change things. It's hopeless and useless to try because WE'LL never let you change things.

It is not hopeless, Jesus is available to all who call upon Him. How simple is the grace of God, believe on His risen Son. You believe all sorts of stuff Reg that you can't really prove, why not in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. A proof of the mercy of God is that anyone of sound mind(or unsound too I suppose) can trust him, in the quiet of their thoughts.

> I'll make you a deal Greenie, I'll participate in your discussions on saving souls if you'll at least think about participating in using your vote to help people in this life. I'll make you a deal Greenie, I'll participate in your discussions on saving souls if you'll at least think about participating in using your vote to help people in this life. I'll make you a deal Greenie, I'll participate in your discussions on saving souls if you'll at least think about participating in using your vote to help people in this life.

Done Deal. I look forward to the discussions Reg. Everybody please note I didn't threaten Reg!-)))

PS Reg: As to the brotherhood of man

We're creeps. We're known for our inhumanity to one another. Take the glasses off. If you have some good friends or family, God has blessed you. But the fact is you will never know who is who until the timing is crucial. We'll stab each other in the back: for a candy bar; for a perceived slight; for a slight advantage in business(we'll call an agency); over a girl who pretends to like us for a time for her own reasons; menfor a piece of ass; for a bonus or leg up from Homeland Security; and all other kinds of advantage or perceived or actual gain. And don't forget, this is prosperous american. If the economy collapses, or simply contracts, beware of the shifting loyalties(I'm sorry but...y'know how it is...I gotta a family...my parents are old...it's just business, nothin' personal...the kids were hungry...I have responsibilities...and so on.

BTW, did ya hear that the Feds are making another pass at training cable installers, pizza/delivery personnel, mailmen, doormen, utility company repairmen and any other citizenry who might have access to your home or are frequently in your vicinity to spy on their fellow citizens? Brotherhood of Man indeed. You think HS and friends will turn down a tip to that noisy neighbor nobody that nobody can stand.

And spare me the 'if you don't have anything to hide' nonsense. One of the unique foundations of the United States of America was an expectation of privacy. The Constitution/America is worth fighting for Reg. And, I am truly sorry to tell you that it is too late to take her back at the ballot box.

That's what makes a committed christian dangerous to any dishonest government/organization. And why we may very well be rounded up before the rapture occurs. We will speak to the truth, whether we like it or not, because we understand we will answer to Jesus, while the unbeliever thinks ignoring Him will give them a pass.

How'd I do?

Be well Reg.