We the People are going to suffer through Kerry too, if he turns out to be the American oligarchies new guy. Apart from Reagan and possibly Johnson, none of the presidents(including Carter) were/are adamantly and exclusively American in their orientation. They are Internationalists.

Well, such as the world is today I think you have to be an internationalist. It's a small world after all and society and humanity has been building toward that. We really can't think in terms of just the USA if that's what you're suggesting. We are a country built on and involved in multiple global partnerships. It's not just the guy in Texas working for Dell Computer, who worries about losing his job to someone from India, that has a stake in how well Dell and the good ol' USA does. There's a guy in Japan, a guy in Sweden, a guy in France, a guy in Uzbekistan, a guy in Norway, a guy in Germany, a guy in Mexico, a guy in Egypt...you get the point I think...that all are tied to the decisions made at Dell, by our government, and how the good ol' USA does and our stock markets rise or fall. So decisions made at the presidential level of this country are damn sure "international" by nature. Really that's a rather large area you've entered into that could take several books and economists to cover. I don't see your point though. It seems clear to me that the guy that grows grapes or works at a tire factory in France is just as tied to the success of this country as the guy that lives in Texas. We are the worlds largest consumer hence the more we consume the more the rest of the world benefits by our consumption. It's a concept we've built this country on right?

And frankly, Kerry will be whatever it takes to be Prez, just as he co-opted Howard Dean's message. Come to think of it so did all the other candidates once it became clear what the Democratic voters were responding to.

I would look at it this way, Dean's message was not "co-opted" by Kerry or anyone else. Dean was a sacrificial lamb. He and the others were all traveling in the same car and for a time Dean grabbed the wheel and drove. So they all went where he went. Political consultants like a solid trend and will tell (force, insist, cajole) their candidates to follow it. Dean was on a joy ride seeing the sights, attracting attention, for the most part burning through the fuel supply so fast it was clear if he was allowed to continue driving they would not make it to the stated destination (the White House). The Dean campaign set out thinking they could just go for broke, say and do what they wanted, because they would never win. So a campaign that started with a simple message they wanted to get out (Dean was the healthcare guy) turned into a giant glow in the dark monster that they were ill equipped to deal with. By the time they got to Iowa the American public had grown skeptical of Dean and for good reason. The people who vote in primaries tend to be very serious about their politics and look closer than the average Joe at who they are voting for. These same people were also very anti-Bush and were not willing to take the risk that Dean would lose the election with his loose cannon ways. He was good for rousing the rabble but by the time they reached Iowa it was time to give Howie the boot. His "scream" played into it only in that the media caught it all on tape and savaged him for it. It was a Dukakis in the tank with a helmet on kinda moment. So they didn't really "co-opt" his message.

The list of presidents you mention covers the last 4 decades Reg. How many of them lied to us just to get elected? How many of them did something entirely contrary to their party platform, or political philosophy(e.g., Clinton co-opting most of the republican agenda)?

Sure it covers the last 4 decades. Look at the list. I see you just discovered from Charlie Rose that Bushco is stocked with Nixon administration clowns. They never went away and they have been driving the car all this time. Break it down and we had a short 4 year break from them with Carter who was destroyed by two things that were well within the control of the folks who took over with Uncle Ronnie:

1. Gasoline (Oil)

2. Hostage situation (CIA)

Funny how they released them as soon as Ronnie rode into town.  Funny how Bush 1 was connected in a big way to both oil and the CIA and could have negociated the release and a gasoline shortage without much effort to take down the Carter administration. Funny who benefitted the most from these situations in the years to come. Funny how that's not much of a conspiracy theory but I'd be called a nut for saying it.

But see, herein lies the problem Reg. I don't know you. Chances are even that we'd be great pals. But, I don't know what you value.

Just read what I write here I think it's clear what I value and I believe we can be friends. I'm easy to get along with and you seem to be as well. I've got no issue with you or your beliefs really.

Did you know that Malthus is wrong: there's plenty of food, it's just that the greed of man continually creates a distribution problem. Speaking of food, where was the goodness of man at the U.N., that organization dedicated to peace on earth - goodwill to all men, during the food for petro theft program(among others). Need you additional citations?

Yes, I know we could feed the hungry while we spend untold billions on "defense" and we could educate people and bring them clean water and develop alternative energy sources. Everything at times does seem to hinge on how it would effect our reliance on oil...don't it? As Mr. Vonnegut wrote "we're junkies" and the dealers want to keep us that way.

You see, we probably already have a divergence of opinion based on that example alone.

Not really but I think we see how we got here in different ways. I think we're on the same side but we're looking in different places. Well that's all I have time for at the moment but I'll be back...