AMY GOODMAN:Yesterday, I spoke with Giuliana Sgrena by telephone from Rome, where she is recovering from the injuries she suffered as a result of the
shooting. I began by asking her reaction to the Pentagon report.
GIULIANA SGRENA: Yes, for the moment we have not an official result of
the reports, but we have some rumors about the conclusion of the report,
so I am very sad about that because I was – is words that I was waiting.
I thought that maybe the Americans will spoke of accident or something
like that, but now they say that the US military because they have no
responsibility for what happened the 4th of March in Baghdad. They say
that they respected all the engagement rules, and that is not true,
because I was there and I can testify that they just shoot us without
any advertising, any intention, any attempt to stop us before. So I
think that it’s very bad this conclusion because they don’t want to
assume any responsibility and they don’t mind about our testifying, my
one and the one of the Italian intelligence agent that these are quite
the same. We were there and we are in a position to testify what
happened, so it’s not true that the Americans say, what the commission
say. So we are very afraid, we are very worried about that, and also the
Italian government for the moment, they doesn’t accept this conclusion,
and those of the Italian members that were in the commission, so it is a
very bad situation. They wanted to give a strike to the Italian
government even if they are allied in the war in Iraq.
AMY GOODMAN: Giuliana, the US military says your car was going very
fast.
GIULIANA SGRENA: That’s not true, because we were slow, and we were
slowing down, because we have to turn. And before there was some water,
so it’s not true that the car was going fast.
AMY GOODMAN: They say the soldiers used hand and arm signals, flashed
white lights and fired warning shots to get the driver to stop.
GIULIANA SGRENA: No, they didn’t. No, no. No light, no air fire, nothing
at all. They were beside the road. They were not on the street. They
were away ten meters, and they didn’t give us any sign that they were
there, so we didn’t saw them before they started to shoot.
AMY GOODMAN: Did they shoot from the front or from the back?
GIULIANA SGRENA: No, on the back, not on the front. They shot on the
back, because Calipari was on the back on the right and he was shot dead
immediately, and I was injured on my shoulder, but I was shot by the
back. So I am a proof that they were shooting on the back and not in
front of the car. We can see by my injured where I was shot.
AMY GOODMAN: Did the Italians do this report with the US military?
GIULIANA SGRENA: There were two Italians in the commission, but they
don’t accept the conclusion of the commission, so now there is some
discussion between the Italian authorities and the American ambassador
here in Rome. But the two members of the commission, they don’t accept
the conclusion of the commission, so there is a problem.
AMY GOODMAN: Did the Italians -- were they able to inspect the car?
GIULIANA SGRENA: No, we are expecting for the car tonight in Rome. We
are supposed, the car will be in Rome tonight, and so the judges that
they are doing the normal inquiry they can, they could see the car. I
hope to see the car also, but we don’t know in which condition we will
receive the car. And the Italian judges, they don’t know also the names
of the soldiers that were involved in the shooting.
AMY GOODMAN: The other person in the car.
GIULIANA SGRENA: Yes.
AMY GOODMAN: Did the two of you testify?
GIULIANA SGRENA: Yes, he did the same testifying as mine, but the
American, the commission didn’t take in account our testifying. It seems
to be like that, because they didn’t mention about our testifying.
AMY GOODMAN: After they shot you and killed Calipari, what happened to
the other man?
GIULIANA SGRENA: The other man left the car and was shouting that we
were Italian and of the embassy, and he was speaking on the telephone
with the Italian government. And we have, my husband, for example, he
was there listening the call. And at a certain moment the soldiers, they
imposed to these agents because these are agents of the Italian
intelligence, and they imposed him to cut the call with the weapons.
AMY GOODMAN: Say that again. What did they do?
GIULIANA SGRENA: They stopped him to -- he was talking by telephone with
the Italian member of the government. It was Berlusconi there and the --
it was his advisor Letta, there was the chief of the intelligence and
also my husband and the director of my newspaper, because they were
there waiting for our news of the liberation. And they was talking about
the shooting and at a certain moment the soldier, the American soldier
stopped him and with the weapon they imposed him to cut the
communication.
AMY GOODMAN: And then what happened?
GIULIANA SGRENA: And then what happened I don’t know, because I was
injured, so they brought me to the hospital, and I don’t know what
happened to the other man, to the other agent.
AMY GOODMAN: Did you get permission, did Calipari get permission to
drive on the road to the airport?
GIULIANA SGRENA: Of course, I was there when they called. They called
the Italian, because there is an official that is linked to the
Americans. And this Italian general spoke to the Captain Green, that is
the American one, telling him that we were on this road and that they
were aware that we were on that road. And this happened at least 20-25
minutes before the shooting.
AMY GOODMAN: This road…
GIULIANA SGRENA: They knew that we were on this road.
AMY GOODMAN: How do you know that they knew?
GIULIANA SGRENA: I know because I was there when the agent called the
Italian one, the general that is in charge for the communication with
the Americans, and this general did a testifying, telling that he was
there with the Captain Green, and Captain Green was immediately informed
about our traveling to the airport. And the Captain Green didn’t say no,
so I think that he’s right. And he’s a general. I don’t think that this
general made a wrong, false testifying.
AMY GOODMAN: So you’re saying Calipari spoke to -- this was an Italian
or US general?
GIULIANA SGRENA: The Italians, they can’t speak to the Americans
directly. There is a man, a special man, a general that is in charge for
the communication with the American commanders. It’s impossible for an
agent, an Italian agent, to speak with the Americans directly. I knew
the rules because I was there many times. And I know that every time
always in Iraq there is an Italian that is in charge for the
communication with the Americans. And in this time, in this moment, was
a general that was there speaking with the Commander Green that was the
correspondent, American one. So I knew about that. And in all the
newspaper, Italian newspaper, was published that. So there is no problem
of communication. Commander Green knew about our presence on that road.
If he didn’t inform the mobile patrol, we don’t know. But he knew, the
commander, the American commander knew about it.
AMY GOODMAN: And where did the conversation take place? Was it in the
Green Zone?
GIULIANA SGRENA: Which one?
AMY GOODMAN: The one where Calipari talked to the Italian general.
GIULIANA SGRENA: I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t follow the general,
because they are the places in the Green Zone I don’t know where, I
can’t know where are the general. You know is a secret place. Because it
is very dangerous in Baghdad, they don’t say where they meet.
AMY GOODMAN: Giuliana Sgrena, can you explain the road? This wasn’t the
regular Baghdad -- the road to the airport that you traveled on? This
was a special road?
GIULIANA SGRENA: Yes. It was a special road for people that are working
in embassies, or they are Americans, or they are contractors. Special
people that go to the airport.
AMY GOODMAN: And did Calipari inform the Americans when he arrived in
Iraq what he was doing?
GIULIANA SGRENA: I don’t know. This I don’t know. I can’t testify about
it. But I think that the intelligence has the possibility to do --
anyway, he got a badge from the US commanders, because he has to go
around with weapons and so. But I didn’t know what he told to the
Americans he wanted to do. I can’t say.
AMY GOODMAN: You mean a badge he got, like permission to go?
GIULIANA SGRENA: Yes. I don’t know. To go around in Iraq you need a
badge. And Calipari got a badge from the American commanders in the
airport. And they knew that he was there with a car, with weapons, and
with another agent, and all these kind of things, because if not, he
couldn’t go around. But what he really said to the Americans, I can’t
say. I can’t know. They are intelligence. They don’t say to other people
like me what they say, what they are doing. You know?
AMY GOODMAN: Giuliana, did you encounter any other US military on that
road before you were shot?
GIULIANA SGRENA: No. No, we didn’t.
AMY GOODMAN: And where did Calipari pick you up? How did you get
rescued?
GIULIANA SGRENA: I don’t know, but I was not -- I was covered.
AMY GOODMAN: Right now, do you think that Prime Minister Silvio
Berlusconi is doing enough in your case?
GIULIANA SGRENA: Sorry?
AMY GOODMAN: Do you think your prime minister, Berlusconi, is doing
enough in your case?
GIULIANA SGRENA: Yes, because I am free. I think that he did before. Now
I don’t know what he is doing? But before, he did, because I am free
now, you know? And I am happy to be free.
AMY GOODMAN: What do think should happen right now, Giuliana Sgrena?
GIULIANA SGRENA: I don’t know.
AMY GOODMAN: What are you calling for?
GIULIANA SGRENA: I am calling for the withdrawal of the troops.
AMY GOODMAN: From Iraq?
GIULIANA SGRENA: Yes, of course. The Italian troops from Iraq, and also
the Americans. But for the moment, as I am Italian, I ask for the
withdrawal of the Italian ones. But my situation will be the withdrawal
of all the troops from Iraq.
AMY GOODMAN: Are you satisfied with Berlusconi saying they will come out
by the end of the year?
GIULIANA SGRENA: Sorry?
AMY GOODMAN: Are you satisfied that Berlusconi has said they will pull
out the troops by the end of the year?
GIULIANA SGRENA: I am not so sure they will, so before, I want to wait
if they will really withdraw all the troops.
AMY GOODMAN: And in terms of your report right now, the US military is
saying the Italians don’t want to sign off on it. Will the Italian
commissioners sign this report?
GIULIANA SGRENA: I don’t know. How can I know? I don’t know. I can’t
meet the Italian members. I don’t know.
AMY GOODMAN: Do you feel like a fair investigation has been done?
GIULIANA SGRENA: No, I don’t think so.
AMY GOODMAN: Who do you think should be held responsible?
GIULIANA SGRENA: I don’t know. I wanted to know, but if there is no
further inquiries, it’s impossible to know.
AMY GOODMAN: Right now, you are calling for the troops to come out. Are
you now continuing to write about Iraq? How are you feeling?
GIULIANA SGRENA: Now I am very bad, because my physical situation is
very bad, so I can’t work for the moment. This is my problem. I am not
well, I am very sick. Still I am still very sick, so I can’t work for
the moment. I am going every day to the hospital. I am very tired, you
know?
AMY GOODMAN: Where did the bullet lodge in your body?
GIULIANA SGRENA: The bullet was in the shoulder, but some pieces reached
the lung, so I am very, very sick.
AMY GOODMAN: And your time in captivity, do you know who held you? And
how were you treated?
GIULIANA SGRENA: I was treated normally, treated from the material point
of view. But I was prisoner, so I was without freedom. And this is very
terrible. But I didn’t know where I was. I was in Baghdad, but I don’t
know where.
AMY GOODMAN: And do you know who held you?
GIULIANA SGRENA: No.
AMY GOODMAN: We all saw the videotape. What were the circumstances of
the videotape?
GIULIANA SGRENA: Of course when you hostages, they tell you what you
have to do, what you have to say, you know? But I don’t like so much to
speak about my period of kidnapping, because I spoke so much about it
that every time that I think about that I am so sick. That is bad for my
health, you know? I always go back to these things and I prefer it, if
possible, don’t to speak so much about that, because it is very bad for
my health.
AMY GOODMAN: President Bush. Do you have a demand of the US President,
the American President?
GIULIANA SGRENA: No. I want only the truth. But they don’t seem to be
interested to find the truth about what happened in Baghdad that night.
AMY GOODMAN: Will you go back to Iraq?
GIULIANA SGRENA: No.
AMY GOODMAN: What will you do?
GIULIANA SGRENA: Sorry?
AMY GOODMAN: What will you do?
GIULIANA SGRENA: I don’t know. For the moment, I don’t know. I have to
take care of my health, you know? I am very bad -- in very bad
situation.
AMY GOODMAN: Do you feel like there is a cover-up here?
GIULIANA SGRENA: Sorry?
AMY GOODMAN: Do you feel like there is a cover-up? Do you feel that the
investigation has been covered up?
GIULIANA SGRENA: Yes, of course. They don’t want the truth. They don’t
want to tell the truth.
AMY GOODMAN: What would make them tell the truth?
GIULIANA SGRENA: I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t really know. Maybe
if the Americans, they press the American government to tell the truth.
Because, if the Americans, they don’t mind; we are small, we are
Italians, we are few Italians, what we can do? I think that it is
important that the Americans, they press their government to tell the
truth, because it’s in the interest also of Americans, the truth. Not
only of Italians, I think. So if you make actions with press on the
government, you, maybe you can do something for us.
AMY GOODMAN: And when you were in Iraq, as a reporter, before you were
captured, what do you think was the most important story for us all to
understand?
GIULIANA SGRENA: I was looking around to see what the people were
thinking about. And overall, I was interested in Fallujah. But when I
went to interview some people from Fallujah, I was kidnapped. Some
people were not interested in my story about Fallujah, I think.
AMY GOODMAN: What did you have to say about Fallujah? What did you
discover?
GIULIANA SGRENA: Just stories. I have not a scoop about Fallujah, just
stories.
AMY GOODMAN: Why did you go to Iraq to begin with? It was a dangerous
place. You knew that.
GIULIANA SGRENA: Yes, I knew. But I am a journalist. I went to Somalia.
I went to Afghanistan. I went to Algeria. I went every places. And I
went to Iraq also. I can’t go only where the places are not dangerous.
It is our work that is dangerous.
AMY GOODMAN: Do you regret having gone to Iraq?
GIULIANA SGRENA: No, I don’t regret.
AMY GOODMAN: And in the car, before you were shot and Calipari was
killed, what did he say to you? What did you talk about?
GIULIANA SGRENA: About the liberation, about experiences. About I don’t
remember, really. I was very happy to be free. But I was happy only for
20 minutes, and then it’s finished. And now I am very sad. I am very
painful, I am very tired. I am very…
AMY GOODMAN: Well, I want to thank you very much for being with us.
GIULIANA SGRENA: Okay. Thank you.
[http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/27/1350235]
Giuliana Sgrena continued
A
Andrea
(view)
AMY GOODMAN:Yesterday, I spoke with Giuliana Sgrena by telephone from Rome, where she is recovering from the injuries she suffered as a result of the
shooting. I began by asking her reaction to the Pentagon report.
GIULIANA SGRENA: Yes, for the moment we have not an official result of
the reports, but we have some rumors about the conclusion of the report,
so I am very sad about that because I was – is words that I was waiting.
I thought that maybe the Americans will spoke of accident or something
like that, but now they say that the US military because they have no
responsibility for what happened the 4th of March in Baghdad. They say
that they respected all the engagement rules, and that is not true,
because I was there and I can testify that they just shoot us without
any advertising, any intention, any attempt to stop us before. So I
think that it’s very bad this conclusion because they don’t want to
assume any responsibility and they don’t mind about our testifying, my
one and the one of the Italian intelligence agent that these are quite
the same. We were there and we are in a position to testify what
happened, so it’s not true that the Americans say, what the commission
say. So we are very afraid, we are very worried about that, and also the
Italian government for the moment, they doesn’t accept this conclusion,
and those of the Italian members that were in the commission, so it is a
very bad situation. They wanted to give a strike to the Italian
government even if they are allied in the war in Iraq.
AMY GOODMAN: Giuliana, the US military says your car was going very
fast.
GIULIANA SGRENA: That’s not true, because we were slow, and we were
slowing down, because we have to turn. And before there was some water,
so it’s not true that the car was going fast.
AMY GOODMAN: They say the soldiers used hand and arm signals, flashed
white lights and fired warning shots to get the driver to stop.
GIULIANA SGRENA: No, they didn’t. No, no. No light, no air fire, nothing
at all. They were beside the road. They were not on the street. They
were away ten meters, and they didn’t give us any sign that they were
there, so we didn’t saw them before they started to shoot.
AMY GOODMAN: Did they shoot from the front or from the back?
GIULIANA SGRENA: No, on the back, not on the front. They shot on the
back, because Calipari was on the back on the right and he was shot dead
immediately, and I was injured on my shoulder, but I was shot by the
back. So I am a proof that they were shooting on the back and not in
front of the car. We can see by my injured where I was shot.
AMY GOODMAN: Did the Italians do this report with the US military?
GIULIANA SGRENA: There were two Italians in the commission, but they
don’t accept the conclusion of the commission, so now there is some
discussion between the Italian authorities and the American ambassador
here in Rome. But the two members of the commission, they don’t accept
the conclusion of the commission, so there is a problem.
AMY GOODMAN: Did the Italians -- were they able to inspect the car?
GIULIANA SGRENA: No, we are expecting for the car tonight in Rome. We
are supposed, the car will be in Rome tonight, and so the judges that
they are doing the normal inquiry they can, they could see the car. I
hope to see the car also, but we don’t know in which condition we will
receive the car. And the Italian judges, they don’t know also the names
of the soldiers that were involved in the shooting.
AMY GOODMAN: The other person in the car.
GIULIANA SGRENA: Yes.
AMY GOODMAN: Did the two of you testify?
GIULIANA SGRENA: Yes, he did the same testifying as mine, but the
American, the commission didn’t take in account our testifying. It seems
to be like that, because they didn’t mention about our testifying.
AMY GOODMAN: After they shot you and killed Calipari, what happened to
the other man?
GIULIANA SGRENA: The other man left the car and was shouting that we
were Italian and of the embassy, and he was speaking on the telephone
with the Italian government. And we have, my husband, for example, he
was there listening the call. And at a certain moment the soldiers, they
imposed to these agents because these are agents of the Italian
intelligence, and they imposed him to cut the call with the weapons.
AMY GOODMAN: Say that again. What did they do?
GIULIANA SGRENA: They stopped him to -- he was talking by telephone with
the Italian member of the government. It was Berlusconi there and the --
it was his advisor Letta, there was the chief of the intelligence and
also my husband and the director of my newspaper, because they were
there waiting for our news of the liberation. And they was talking about
the shooting and at a certain moment the soldier, the American soldier
stopped him and with the weapon they imposed him to cut the
communication.
AMY GOODMAN: And then what happened?
GIULIANA SGRENA: And then what happened I don’t know, because I was
injured, so they brought me to the hospital, and I don’t know what
happened to the other man, to the other agent.
AMY GOODMAN: Did you get permission, did Calipari get permission to
drive on the road to the airport?
GIULIANA SGRENA: Of course, I was there when they called. They called
the Italian, because there is an official that is linked to the
Americans. And this Italian general spoke to the Captain Green, that is
the American one, telling him that we were on this road and that they
were aware that we were on that road. And this happened at least 20-25
minutes before the shooting.
AMY GOODMAN: This road…
GIULIANA SGRENA: They knew that we were on this road.
AMY GOODMAN: How do you know that they knew?
GIULIANA SGRENA: I know because I was there when the agent called the
Italian one, the general that is in charge for the communication with
the Americans, and this general did a testifying, telling that he was
there with the Captain Green, and Captain Green was immediately informed
about our traveling to the airport. And the Captain Green didn’t say no,
so I think that he’s right. And he’s a general. I don’t think that this
general made a wrong, false testifying.
AMY GOODMAN: So you’re saying Calipari spoke to -- this was an Italian
or US general?
GIULIANA SGRENA: The Italians, they can’t speak to the Americans
directly. There is a man, a special man, a general that is in charge for
the communication with the American commanders. It’s impossible for an
agent, an Italian agent, to speak with the Americans directly. I knew
the rules because I was there many times. And I know that every time
always in Iraq there is an Italian that is in charge for the
communication with the Americans. And in this time, in this moment, was
a general that was there speaking with the Commander Green that was the
correspondent, American one. So I knew about that. And in all the
newspaper, Italian newspaper, was published that. So there is no problem
of communication. Commander Green knew about our presence on that road.
If he didn’t inform the mobile patrol, we don’t know. But he knew, the
commander, the American commander knew about it.
AMY GOODMAN: And where did the conversation take place? Was it in the
Green Zone?
GIULIANA SGRENA: Which one?
AMY GOODMAN: The one where Calipari talked to the Italian general.
GIULIANA SGRENA: I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t follow the general,
because they are the places in the Green Zone I don’t know where, I
can’t know where are the general. You know is a secret place. Because it
is very dangerous in Baghdad, they don’t say where they meet.
AMY GOODMAN: Giuliana Sgrena, can you explain the road? This wasn’t the
regular Baghdad -- the road to the airport that you traveled on? This
was a special road?
GIULIANA SGRENA: Yes. It was a special road for people that are working
in embassies, or they are Americans, or they are contractors. Special
people that go to the airport.
AMY GOODMAN: And did Calipari inform the Americans when he arrived in
Iraq what he was doing?
GIULIANA SGRENA: I don’t know. This I don’t know. I can’t testify about
it. But I think that the intelligence has the possibility to do --
anyway, he got a badge from the US commanders, because he has to go
around with weapons and so. But I didn’t know what he told to the
Americans he wanted to do. I can’t say.
AMY GOODMAN: You mean a badge he got, like permission to go?
GIULIANA SGRENA: Yes. I don’t know. To go around in Iraq you need a
badge. And Calipari got a badge from the American commanders in the
airport. And they knew that he was there with a car, with weapons, and
with another agent, and all these kind of things, because if not, he
couldn’t go around. But what he really said to the Americans, I can’t
say. I can’t know. They are intelligence. They don’t say to other people
like me what they say, what they are doing. You know?
AMY GOODMAN: Giuliana, did you encounter any other US military on that
road before you were shot?
GIULIANA SGRENA: No. No, we didn’t.
AMY GOODMAN: And where did Calipari pick you up? How did you get
rescued?
GIULIANA SGRENA: I don’t know, but I was not -- I was covered.
AMY GOODMAN: Right now, do you think that Prime Minister Silvio
Berlusconi is doing enough in your case?
GIULIANA SGRENA: Sorry?
AMY GOODMAN: Do you think your prime minister, Berlusconi, is doing
enough in your case?
GIULIANA SGRENA: Yes, because I am free. I think that he did before. Now
I don’t know what he is doing? But before, he did, because I am free
now, you know? And I am happy to be free.
AMY GOODMAN: What do think should happen right now, Giuliana Sgrena?
GIULIANA SGRENA: I don’t know.
AMY GOODMAN: What are you calling for?
GIULIANA SGRENA: I am calling for the withdrawal of the troops.
AMY GOODMAN: From Iraq?
GIULIANA SGRENA: Yes, of course. The Italian troops from Iraq, and also
the Americans. But for the moment, as I am Italian, I ask for the
withdrawal of the Italian ones. But my situation will be the withdrawal
of all the troops from Iraq.
AMY GOODMAN: Are you satisfied with Berlusconi saying they will come out
by the end of the year?
GIULIANA SGRENA: Sorry?
AMY GOODMAN: Are you satisfied that Berlusconi has said they will pull
out the troops by the end of the year?
GIULIANA SGRENA: I am not so sure they will, so before, I want to wait
if they will really withdraw all the troops.
AMY GOODMAN: And in terms of your report right now, the US military is
saying the Italians don’t want to sign off on it. Will the Italian
commissioners sign this report?
GIULIANA SGRENA: I don’t know. How can I know? I don’t know. I can’t
meet the Italian members. I don’t know.
AMY GOODMAN: Do you feel like a fair investigation has been done?
GIULIANA SGRENA: No, I don’t think so.
AMY GOODMAN: Who do you think should be held responsible?
GIULIANA SGRENA: I don’t know. I wanted to know, but if there is no
further inquiries, it’s impossible to know.
AMY GOODMAN: Right now, you are calling for the troops to come out. Are
you now continuing to write about Iraq? How are you feeling?
GIULIANA SGRENA: Now I am very bad, because my physical situation is
very bad, so I can’t work for the moment. This is my problem. I am not
well, I am very sick. Still I am still very sick, so I can’t work for
the moment. I am going every day to the hospital. I am very tired, you
know?
AMY GOODMAN: Where did the bullet lodge in your body?
GIULIANA SGRENA: The bullet was in the shoulder, but some pieces reached
the lung, so I am very, very sick.
AMY GOODMAN: And your time in captivity, do you know who held you? And
how were you treated?
GIULIANA SGRENA: I was treated normally, treated from the material point
of view. But I was prisoner, so I was without freedom. And this is very
terrible. But I didn’t know where I was. I was in Baghdad, but I don’t
know where.
AMY GOODMAN: And do you know who held you?
GIULIANA SGRENA: No.
AMY GOODMAN: We all saw the videotape. What were the circumstances of
the videotape?
GIULIANA SGRENA: Of course when you hostages, they tell you what you
have to do, what you have to say, you know? But I don’t like so much to
speak about my period of kidnapping, because I spoke so much about it
that every time that I think about that I am so sick. That is bad for my
health, you know? I always go back to these things and I prefer it, if
possible, don’t to speak so much about that, because it is very bad for
my health.
AMY GOODMAN: President Bush. Do you have a demand of the US President,
the American President?
GIULIANA SGRENA: No. I want only the truth. But they don’t seem to be
interested to find the truth about what happened in Baghdad that night.
AMY GOODMAN: Will you go back to Iraq?
GIULIANA SGRENA: No.
AMY GOODMAN: What will you do?
GIULIANA SGRENA: Sorry?
AMY GOODMAN: What will you do?
GIULIANA SGRENA: I don’t know. For the moment, I don’t know. I have to
take care of my health, you know? I am very bad -- in very bad
situation.
AMY GOODMAN: Do you feel like there is a cover-up here?
GIULIANA SGRENA: Sorry?
AMY GOODMAN: Do you feel like there is a cover-up? Do you feel that the
investigation has been covered up?
GIULIANA SGRENA: Yes, of course. They don’t want the truth. They don’t
want to tell the truth.
AMY GOODMAN: What would make them tell the truth?
GIULIANA SGRENA: I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t really know. Maybe
if the Americans, they press the American government to tell the truth.
Because, if the Americans, they don’t mind; we are small, we are
Italians, we are few Italians, what we can do? I think that it is
important that the Americans, they press their government to tell the
truth, because it’s in the interest also of Americans, the truth. Not
only of Italians, I think. So if you make actions with press on the
government, you, maybe you can do something for us.
AMY GOODMAN: And when you were in Iraq, as a reporter, before you were
captured, what do you think was the most important story for us all to
understand?
GIULIANA SGRENA: I was looking around to see what the people were
thinking about. And overall, I was interested in Fallujah. But when I
went to interview some people from Fallujah, I was kidnapped. Some
people were not interested in my story about Fallujah, I think.
AMY GOODMAN: What did you have to say about Fallujah? What did you
discover?
GIULIANA SGRENA: Just stories. I have not a scoop about Fallujah, just
stories.
AMY GOODMAN: Why did you go to Iraq to begin with? It was a dangerous
place. You knew that.
GIULIANA SGRENA: Yes, I knew. But I am a journalist. I went to Somalia.
I went to Afghanistan. I went to Algeria. I went every places. And I
went to Iraq also. I can’t go only where the places are not dangerous.
It is our work that is dangerous.
AMY GOODMAN: Do you regret having gone to Iraq?
GIULIANA SGRENA: No, I don’t regret.
AMY GOODMAN: And in the car, before you were shot and Calipari was
killed, what did he say to you? What did you talk about?
GIULIANA SGRENA: About the liberation, about experiences. About I don’t
remember, really. I was very happy to be free. But I was happy only for
20 minutes, and then it’s finished. And now I am very sad. I am very
painful, I am very tired. I am very…
AMY GOODMAN: Well, I want to thank you very much for being with us.
GIULIANA SGRENA: Okay. Thank you.
[http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/27/1350235]
shooting. I began by asking her reaction to the Pentagon report.
GIULIANA SGRENA: Yes, for the moment we have not an official result of
the reports, but we have some rumors about the conclusion of the report,
so I am very sad about that because I was – is words that I was waiting.
I thought that maybe the Americans will spoke of accident or something
like that, but now they say that the US military because they have no
responsibility for what happened the 4th of March in Baghdad. They say
that they respected all the engagement rules, and that is not true,
because I was there and I can testify that they just shoot us without
any advertising, any intention, any attempt to stop us before. So I
think that it’s very bad this conclusion because they don’t want to
assume any responsibility and they don’t mind about our testifying, my
one and the one of the Italian intelligence agent that these are quite
the same. We were there and we are in a position to testify what
happened, so it’s not true that the Americans say, what the commission
say. So we are very afraid, we are very worried about that, and also the
Italian government for the moment, they doesn’t accept this conclusion,
and those of the Italian members that were in the commission, so it is a
very bad situation. They wanted to give a strike to the Italian
government even if they are allied in the war in Iraq.
AMY GOODMAN: Giuliana, the US military says your car was going very
fast.
GIULIANA SGRENA: That’s not true, because we were slow, and we were
slowing down, because we have to turn. And before there was some water,
so it’s not true that the car was going fast.
AMY GOODMAN: They say the soldiers used hand and arm signals, flashed
white lights and fired warning shots to get the driver to stop.
GIULIANA SGRENA: No, they didn’t. No, no. No light, no air fire, nothing
at all. They were beside the road. They were not on the street. They
were away ten meters, and they didn’t give us any sign that they were
there, so we didn’t saw them before they started to shoot.
AMY GOODMAN: Did they shoot from the front or from the back?
GIULIANA SGRENA: No, on the back, not on the front. They shot on the
back, because Calipari was on the back on the right and he was shot dead
immediately, and I was injured on my shoulder, but I was shot by the
back. So I am a proof that they were shooting on the back and not in
front of the car. We can see by my injured where I was shot.
AMY GOODMAN: Did the Italians do this report with the US military?
GIULIANA SGRENA: There were two Italians in the commission, but they
don’t accept the conclusion of the commission, so now there is some
discussion between the Italian authorities and the American ambassador
here in Rome. But the two members of the commission, they don’t accept
the conclusion of the commission, so there is a problem.
AMY GOODMAN: Did the Italians -- were they able to inspect the car?
GIULIANA SGRENA: No, we are expecting for the car tonight in Rome. We
are supposed, the car will be in Rome tonight, and so the judges that
they are doing the normal inquiry they can, they could see the car. I
hope to see the car also, but we don’t know in which condition we will
receive the car. And the Italian judges, they don’t know also the names
of the soldiers that were involved in the shooting.
AMY GOODMAN: The other person in the car.
GIULIANA SGRENA: Yes.
AMY GOODMAN: Did the two of you testify?
GIULIANA SGRENA: Yes, he did the same testifying as mine, but the
American, the commission didn’t take in account our testifying. It seems
to be like that, because they didn’t mention about our testifying.
AMY GOODMAN: After they shot you and killed Calipari, what happened to
the other man?
GIULIANA SGRENA: The other man left the car and was shouting that we
were Italian and of the embassy, and he was speaking on the telephone
with the Italian government. And we have, my husband, for example, he
was there listening the call. And at a certain moment the soldiers, they
imposed to these agents because these are agents of the Italian
intelligence, and they imposed him to cut the call with the weapons.
AMY GOODMAN: Say that again. What did they do?
GIULIANA SGRENA: They stopped him to -- he was talking by telephone with
the Italian member of the government. It was Berlusconi there and the --
it was his advisor Letta, there was the chief of the intelligence and
also my husband and the director of my newspaper, because they were
there waiting for our news of the liberation. And they was talking about
the shooting and at a certain moment the soldier, the American soldier
stopped him and with the weapon they imposed him to cut the
communication.
AMY GOODMAN: And then what happened?
GIULIANA SGRENA: And then what happened I don’t know, because I was
injured, so they brought me to the hospital, and I don’t know what
happened to the other man, to the other agent.
AMY GOODMAN: Did you get permission, did Calipari get permission to
drive on the road to the airport?
GIULIANA SGRENA: Of course, I was there when they called. They called
the Italian, because there is an official that is linked to the
Americans. And this Italian general spoke to the Captain Green, that is
the American one, telling him that we were on this road and that they
were aware that we were on that road. And this happened at least 20-25
minutes before the shooting.
AMY GOODMAN: This road…
GIULIANA SGRENA: They knew that we were on this road.
AMY GOODMAN: How do you know that they knew?
GIULIANA SGRENA: I know because I was there when the agent called the
Italian one, the general that is in charge for the communication with
the Americans, and this general did a testifying, telling that he was
there with the Captain Green, and Captain Green was immediately informed
about our traveling to the airport. And the Captain Green didn’t say no,
so I think that he’s right. And he’s a general. I don’t think that this
general made a wrong, false testifying.
AMY GOODMAN: So you’re saying Calipari spoke to -- this was an Italian
or US general?
GIULIANA SGRENA: The Italians, they can’t speak to the Americans
directly. There is a man, a special man, a general that is in charge for
the communication with the American commanders. It’s impossible for an
agent, an Italian agent, to speak with the Americans directly. I knew
the rules because I was there many times. And I know that every time
always in Iraq there is an Italian that is in charge for the
communication with the Americans. And in this time, in this moment, was
a general that was there speaking with the Commander Green that was the
correspondent, American one. So I knew about that. And in all the
newspaper, Italian newspaper, was published that. So there is no problem
of communication. Commander Green knew about our presence on that road.
If he didn’t inform the mobile patrol, we don’t know. But he knew, the
commander, the American commander knew about it.
AMY GOODMAN: And where did the conversation take place? Was it in the
Green Zone?
GIULIANA SGRENA: Which one?
AMY GOODMAN: The one where Calipari talked to the Italian general.
GIULIANA SGRENA: I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t follow the general,
because they are the places in the Green Zone I don’t know where, I
can’t know where are the general. You know is a secret place. Because it
is very dangerous in Baghdad, they don’t say where they meet.
AMY GOODMAN: Giuliana Sgrena, can you explain the road? This wasn’t the
regular Baghdad -- the road to the airport that you traveled on? This
was a special road?
GIULIANA SGRENA: Yes. It was a special road for people that are working
in embassies, or they are Americans, or they are contractors. Special
people that go to the airport.
AMY GOODMAN: And did Calipari inform the Americans when he arrived in
Iraq what he was doing?
GIULIANA SGRENA: I don’t know. This I don’t know. I can’t testify about
it. But I think that the intelligence has the possibility to do --
anyway, he got a badge from the US commanders, because he has to go
around with weapons and so. But I didn’t know what he told to the
Americans he wanted to do. I can’t say.
AMY GOODMAN: You mean a badge he got, like permission to go?
GIULIANA SGRENA: Yes. I don’t know. To go around in Iraq you need a
badge. And Calipari got a badge from the American commanders in the
airport. And they knew that he was there with a car, with weapons, and
with another agent, and all these kind of things, because if not, he
couldn’t go around. But what he really said to the Americans, I can’t
say. I can’t know. They are intelligence. They don’t say to other people
like me what they say, what they are doing. You know?
AMY GOODMAN: Giuliana, did you encounter any other US military on that
road before you were shot?
GIULIANA SGRENA: No. No, we didn’t.
AMY GOODMAN: And where did Calipari pick you up? How did you get
rescued?
GIULIANA SGRENA: I don’t know, but I was not -- I was covered.
AMY GOODMAN: Right now, do you think that Prime Minister Silvio
Berlusconi is doing enough in your case?
GIULIANA SGRENA: Sorry?
AMY GOODMAN: Do you think your prime minister, Berlusconi, is doing
enough in your case?
GIULIANA SGRENA: Yes, because I am free. I think that he did before. Now
I don’t know what he is doing? But before, he did, because I am free
now, you know? And I am happy to be free.
AMY GOODMAN: What do think should happen right now, Giuliana Sgrena?
GIULIANA SGRENA: I don’t know.
AMY GOODMAN: What are you calling for?
GIULIANA SGRENA: I am calling for the withdrawal of the troops.
AMY GOODMAN: From Iraq?
GIULIANA SGRENA: Yes, of course. The Italian troops from Iraq, and also
the Americans. But for the moment, as I am Italian, I ask for the
withdrawal of the Italian ones. But my situation will be the withdrawal
of all the troops from Iraq.
AMY GOODMAN: Are you satisfied with Berlusconi saying they will come out
by the end of the year?
GIULIANA SGRENA: Sorry?
AMY GOODMAN: Are you satisfied that Berlusconi has said they will pull
out the troops by the end of the year?
GIULIANA SGRENA: I am not so sure they will, so before, I want to wait
if they will really withdraw all the troops.
AMY GOODMAN: And in terms of your report right now, the US military is
saying the Italians don’t want to sign off on it. Will the Italian
commissioners sign this report?
GIULIANA SGRENA: I don’t know. How can I know? I don’t know. I can’t
meet the Italian members. I don’t know.
AMY GOODMAN: Do you feel like a fair investigation has been done?
GIULIANA SGRENA: No, I don’t think so.
AMY GOODMAN: Who do you think should be held responsible?
GIULIANA SGRENA: I don’t know. I wanted to know, but if there is no
further inquiries, it’s impossible to know.
AMY GOODMAN: Right now, you are calling for the troops to come out. Are
you now continuing to write about Iraq? How are you feeling?
GIULIANA SGRENA: Now I am very bad, because my physical situation is
very bad, so I can’t work for the moment. This is my problem. I am not
well, I am very sick. Still I am still very sick, so I can’t work for
the moment. I am going every day to the hospital. I am very tired, you
know?
AMY GOODMAN: Where did the bullet lodge in your body?
GIULIANA SGRENA: The bullet was in the shoulder, but some pieces reached
the lung, so I am very, very sick.
AMY GOODMAN: And your time in captivity, do you know who held you? And
how were you treated?
GIULIANA SGRENA: I was treated normally, treated from the material point
of view. But I was prisoner, so I was without freedom. And this is very
terrible. But I didn’t know where I was. I was in Baghdad, but I don’t
know where.
AMY GOODMAN: And do you know who held you?
GIULIANA SGRENA: No.
AMY GOODMAN: We all saw the videotape. What were the circumstances of
the videotape?
GIULIANA SGRENA: Of course when you hostages, they tell you what you
have to do, what you have to say, you know? But I don’t like so much to
speak about my period of kidnapping, because I spoke so much about it
that every time that I think about that I am so sick. That is bad for my
health, you know? I always go back to these things and I prefer it, if
possible, don’t to speak so much about that, because it is very bad for
my health.
AMY GOODMAN: President Bush. Do you have a demand of the US President,
the American President?
GIULIANA SGRENA: No. I want only the truth. But they don’t seem to be
interested to find the truth about what happened in Baghdad that night.
AMY GOODMAN: Will you go back to Iraq?
GIULIANA SGRENA: No.
AMY GOODMAN: What will you do?
GIULIANA SGRENA: Sorry?
AMY GOODMAN: What will you do?
GIULIANA SGRENA: I don’t know. For the moment, I don’t know. I have to
take care of my health, you know? I am very bad -- in very bad
situation.
AMY GOODMAN: Do you feel like there is a cover-up here?
GIULIANA SGRENA: Sorry?
AMY GOODMAN: Do you feel like there is a cover-up? Do you feel that the
investigation has been covered up?
GIULIANA SGRENA: Yes, of course. They don’t want the truth. They don’t
want to tell the truth.
AMY GOODMAN: What would make them tell the truth?
GIULIANA SGRENA: I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t really know. Maybe
if the Americans, they press the American government to tell the truth.
Because, if the Americans, they don’t mind; we are small, we are
Italians, we are few Italians, what we can do? I think that it is
important that the Americans, they press their government to tell the
truth, because it’s in the interest also of Americans, the truth. Not
only of Italians, I think. So if you make actions with press on the
government, you, maybe you can do something for us.
AMY GOODMAN: And when you were in Iraq, as a reporter, before you were
captured, what do you think was the most important story for us all to
understand?
GIULIANA SGRENA: I was looking around to see what the people were
thinking about. And overall, I was interested in Fallujah. But when I
went to interview some people from Fallujah, I was kidnapped. Some
people were not interested in my story about Fallujah, I think.
AMY GOODMAN: What did you have to say about Fallujah? What did you
discover?
GIULIANA SGRENA: Just stories. I have not a scoop about Fallujah, just
stories.
AMY GOODMAN: Why did you go to Iraq to begin with? It was a dangerous
place. You knew that.
GIULIANA SGRENA: Yes, I knew. But I am a journalist. I went to Somalia.
I went to Afghanistan. I went to Algeria. I went every places. And I
went to Iraq also. I can’t go only where the places are not dangerous.
It is our work that is dangerous.
AMY GOODMAN: Do you regret having gone to Iraq?
GIULIANA SGRENA: No, I don’t regret.
AMY GOODMAN: And in the car, before you were shot and Calipari was
killed, what did he say to you? What did you talk about?
GIULIANA SGRENA: About the liberation, about experiences. About I don’t
remember, really. I was very happy to be free. But I was happy only for
20 minutes, and then it’s finished. And now I am very sad. I am very
painful, I am very tired. I am very…
AMY GOODMAN: Well, I want to thank you very much for being with us.
GIULIANA SGRENA: Okay. Thank you.
[http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/27/1350235]
