Green Mtn
location: Observing the Progressive madness with considerably less amusement.
listening to: Grandchildren, the best reason for saving the future.
registered: 2004.04.03
posts: 2617
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Do note innocent bystanders are acceptably expendable too.http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22989-1742008,00.html
the family speaks link
Family of innocent Brazilian demands answers from police
over his
shooting
(Filed: 18/08/2005)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/
news/2005/
08/18/nmenez118.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/08/18/
ixnewstop.html
Lawyers for the family of Jean Charles de Menezes yesterday set
out a series of key questions that they said must be answered by
the inquiry into his death. Some of the detail is now clearer
following the leak of confidential documents, photographs and
witness statements. But gaps remain that the Independent Police
Complaints Commission, which is conducting the investigation, will
be expected to fill.
How was Jean Charles de Menezes first identified as a suspect
and
on what basis?
09:33: He leaves Tulse Hill
WHAT IS KNOWN: The police, who were searching for four
men
suspected of trying to detonate explosives on the London transport
system on July 21, had placed a block of flats on Scotia Road, Tulse
Hill, south London, under observation as a result of information
found at one of the bomb scenes.
They believed that the nine flats contained one or more of the
alleged terrorists.
At 9.33am on July 22, Mr de Menezes left the block and went to a
nearby bus stop. Police saw him and, judging him to be of Asian
appearance, suspected him to be one of the terrorists.
No positive identification was made because an officer was
relieving himself at the time. According to the leaked documents,
the officer said: "As he walked out of my line of vision I checked
the photographs and transmitted that it would be worth someone
else having a look.
"I should point out that as I observed this male exiting the block I
was in the process of relieving myself.
"At this time I was not able to transmit my observations and switch
on the video camera at the same time. There is therefore no video
footage of this male."
Why was he allowed to board a bus without challenge if he was
indeed a suspect?
09:40: He boards a No 2 bus
WHAT IS KNOWN: One of the leaked witness accounts says:
"De
Menezes was observed walking to a bus stop and then boarded a
bus, travelling to Stockwell station. During the course of this, his
description and demeanour was assessed and it was believed he
matched the identity of one of the suspects wanted for terrorist
offences.''
Why was he allowed to continue his journey unchallenged if he was
a suspect?
10:02: He gets off in Stockwell
WHAT IS KNOWN: Mr de Menezes was not intercepted on the
bus. It
is believed he was followed by plainclothes police officers and was
allowed to travel unmolested in the hope that he could lead them
to other suspects. In fact, he travelled to Stockwell Tube station.
At some point on this journey it was decided that he should be
prevented from getting on a train. This decision will have been
taken by Cdr Cressida Dick, 44, the Oxford-educated member of
the Met's specialist crimes directorate. She was the so-called Gold
Commander running the operation from Scotland Yard.
Why was he allowed to board an Underground train if he was a
suspect?
10:05: He enters the tube station
WHAT IS KNOWN: Mr de Menezes used his Oyster travel card
to
enter the station and made his way to the platform, where a train
was waiting to leave. He got on and sat down. It is possible that
armed response teams had arrived too late to stop him getting into
the station.
When did police identify themselves to him and how?
WHAT IS KNOWN: All the officers were in casual clothes. However, a
member of the surveillance team has said in a witness statement: ''I
heard shouting which included the word 'police' and turned to face
the male in the denim jacket. He immediately stood up and
advanced towards me and the SO19 officers. I grabbed the male in
the denim jacket by wrapping both my arms around his torso,
pinning his arms to his side. I then pushed him back on to the seat
where he had been previously sitting. I then heard a gunshot very
close to my left ear and was dragged away on to the floor.''
However, the instructions issued to armed surveillance teams,
known as the Operation Kratos guidelines, state: ''It is vital that you
take no action that would alert a suspect to the fact that they have
been identified by police.''
What opportunities were afforded for alternative action?
He boards the train and is grabbed by police and shot seven
times
WHAT IS KNOWN: If armed officers in pursuit of a suspected
suicide
bomber believe that he is about to detonate a bomb or refuses to
comply with police requests, he can be shot in the head. Kratos
guidelines say that a shot to the body could detonate any device
strapped to the torso.
''If the subject was non-compliant a critical shot may be taken,'' the
guidance states.
What other means of incapacitating a suspect were available on
that day? If alternative means were not available, why not? If they
were, why were they not used?
WHAT IS KNOWN: The S019 officers who followed Mr de Menezes
are members of an armed unit and carry pistols and automatic
weapons. When one of the London bomb suspects was arrested in
the West Midlands the following week, he was incapacitated using a
Taser weapon that fires an electric charge of 50,000 volts into the
victim without killing him.
Sir Ian Blair made it clear that he did not favour such a tactic.
He said: ''It was an incredible risk to use a Taser on a suicide
bomber because the Taser itself could set it off and that is not the
policy. I can't imagine how that was used. We use Tasers in London
regularly but a Taser sends electric currents into the body of
somebody; if there is a bomb on that body, then the bomb can go
off.''
Where did a "shoot to kill" policy emanate from and on what
claimed legal basis? What public debate and democratic
accountability surrounded the coming into being of that policy?
WHAT IS KNOWN: It has always been the case that if armed police
feel their lives or those of members of the public are in danger they
can, and must, shoot to kill.
In the light of the terrorist threat, these guidelines were refined by
Lord Stevens, the former Met commissioner. He said: "We are living
in unique times of unique evil, at war with an enemy of
unspeakable brutality, and I have no doubt that now, more than
ever, the principle is right despite the chance, tragically, of error."
Sir Ian, who took over the post this year, concurred. He said the
policy was the "least worst" way of tackling suicide bombers and
refused to rule out other innocent people being shot in similar
circumstances.
"I am not certain the tactic we have is the right tactic but it is the
best we have found so far."
Why was the suggestion that five bullets were fired allowed to
continue as a public assertion, uncorrected, when there were eight?
WHAT IS KNOWN: Only when the inquest was opened into Mr de
Menezes's death did it become known that more than five shots
had been fired. He was shot seven times in the head and once in
the shoulder. It has now been disclosed that 11 shots were fired by
two police officers. The three other bullets missed their target.
Why did Scotland Yard allow a number of assertions, now known to
be untrue, to stay in the public domain?
WHAT IS KNOWN: Earlier statements that Mr de Menezes was
wearing a padded winter coat at the height of summer, thereby
arousing police suspicions, continued to be repeated for several
days even though he was, in fact, wearing a denim jacket.
The original suggestion that he was wearing a heavy fleece seems
to have come from a witness on the train, Mark Whitby, but the Met
never corrected this.
It was also suggested, initially in a statement issued by Scotland
Yard, that ''he vaulted over the ticket barrier, ran downstairs and
on to a Tube, where it appears he stumbled''. It now transpires that
he was acting like a normal commuter, using his travel pass, and
hurrying towards the train only to avoid missing it.
According to the family's lawyers, the pathologist conducting the
post mortem examination on Mr de Menezes's body was told five
days later that he had vaulted the ticket barrier and run, even
though CCTV cameras apparently show he made his way slowly
down the escalator.
''Why was he not told the facts which clearly by then [July 27] must
have been available,'' the lawyers asked.
GM~Who? Us lie? You must be mistaken!
–--
“Restriction of free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions.” Wm O. Douglas
“Restriction of free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions.” Wm O. Douglas
G
Green Mtn
(view)
Do note innocent bystanders are acceptably expendable too.http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22989-1742008,00.html
the family speaks link
Family of innocent Brazilian demands answers from police
over his
shooting
(Filed: 18/08/2005)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/
news/2005/
08/18/nmenez118.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/08/18/
ixnewstop.html
Lawyers for the family of Jean Charles de Menezes yesterday set
out a series of key questions that they said must be answered by
the inquiry into his death. Some of the detail is now clearer
following the leak of confidential documents, photographs and
witness statements. But gaps remain that the Independent Police
Complaints Commission, which is conducting the investigation, will
be expected to fill.
How was Jean Charles de Menezes first identified as a suspect
and
on what basis?
09:33: He leaves Tulse Hill
WHAT IS KNOWN: The police, who were searching for four
men
suspected of trying to detonate explosives on the London transport
system on July 21, had placed a block of flats on Scotia Road, Tulse
Hill, south London, under observation as a result of information
found at one of the bomb scenes.
They believed that the nine flats contained one or more of the
alleged terrorists.
At 9.33am on July 22, Mr de Menezes left the block and went to a
nearby bus stop. Police saw him and, judging him to be of Asian
appearance, suspected him to be one of the terrorists.
No positive identification was made because an officer was
relieving himself at the time. According to the leaked documents,
the officer said: "As he walked out of my line of vision I checked
the photographs and transmitted that it would be worth someone
else having a look.
"I should point out that as I observed this male exiting the block I
was in the process of relieving myself.
"At this time I was not able to transmit my observations and switch
on the video camera at the same time. There is therefore no video
footage of this male."
Why was he allowed to board a bus without challenge if he was
indeed a suspect?
09:40: He boards a No 2 bus
WHAT IS KNOWN: One of the leaked witness accounts says:
"De
Menezes was observed walking to a bus stop and then boarded a
bus, travelling to Stockwell station. During the course of this, his
description and demeanour was assessed and it was believed he
matched the identity of one of the suspects wanted for terrorist
offences.''
Why was he allowed to continue his journey unchallenged if he was
a suspect?
10:02: He gets off in Stockwell
WHAT IS KNOWN: Mr de Menezes was not intercepted on the
bus. It
is believed he was followed by plainclothes police officers and was
allowed to travel unmolested in the hope that he could lead them
to other suspects. In fact, he travelled to Stockwell Tube station.
At some point on this journey it was decided that he should be
prevented from getting on a train. This decision will have been
taken by Cdr Cressida Dick, 44, the Oxford-educated member of
the Met's specialist crimes directorate. She was the so-called Gold
Commander running the operation from Scotland Yard.
Why was he allowed to board an Underground train if he was a
suspect?
10:05: He enters the tube station
WHAT IS KNOWN: Mr de Menezes used his Oyster travel card
to
enter the station and made his way to the platform, where a train
was waiting to leave. He got on and sat down. It is possible that
armed response teams had arrived too late to stop him getting into
the station.
When did police identify themselves to him and how?
WHAT IS KNOWN: All the officers were in casual clothes. However, a
member of the surveillance team has said in a witness statement: ''I
heard shouting which included the word 'police' and turned to face
the male in the denim jacket. He immediately stood up and
advanced towards me and the SO19 officers. I grabbed the male in
the denim jacket by wrapping both my arms around his torso,
pinning his arms to his side. I then pushed him back on to the seat
where he had been previously sitting. I then heard a gunshot very
close to my left ear and was dragged away on to the floor.''
However, the instructions issued to armed surveillance teams,
known as the Operation Kratos guidelines, state: ''It is vital that you
take no action that would alert a suspect to the fact that they have
been identified by police.''
What opportunities were afforded for alternative action?
He boards the train and is grabbed by police and shot seven
times
WHAT IS KNOWN: If armed officers in pursuit of a suspected
suicide
bomber believe that he is about to detonate a bomb or refuses to
comply with police requests, he can be shot in the head. Kratos
guidelines say that a shot to the body could detonate any device
strapped to the torso.
''If the subject was non-compliant a critical shot may be taken,'' the
guidance states.
What other means of incapacitating a suspect were available on
that day? If alternative means were not available, why not? If they
were, why were they not used?
WHAT IS KNOWN: The S019 officers who followed Mr de Menezes
are members of an armed unit and carry pistols and automatic
weapons. When one of the London bomb suspects was arrested in
the West Midlands the following week, he was incapacitated using a
Taser weapon that fires an electric charge of 50,000 volts into the
victim without killing him.
Sir Ian Blair made it clear that he did not favour such a tactic.
He said: ''It was an incredible risk to use a Taser on a suicide
bomber because the Taser itself could set it off and that is not the
policy. I can't imagine how that was used. We use Tasers in London
regularly but a Taser sends electric currents into the body of
somebody; if there is a bomb on that body, then the bomb can go
off.''
Where did a "shoot to kill" policy emanate from and on what
claimed legal basis? What public debate and democratic
accountability surrounded the coming into being of that policy?
WHAT IS KNOWN: It has always been the case that if armed police
feel their lives or those of members of the public are in danger they
can, and must, shoot to kill.
In the light of the terrorist threat, these guidelines were refined by
Lord Stevens, the former Met commissioner. He said: "We are living
in unique times of unique evil, at war with an enemy of
unspeakable brutality, and I have no doubt that now, more than
ever, the principle is right despite the chance, tragically, of error."
Sir Ian, who took over the post this year, concurred. He said the
policy was the "least worst" way of tackling suicide bombers and
refused to rule out other innocent people being shot in similar
circumstances.
"I am not certain the tactic we have is the right tactic but it is the
best we have found so far."
Why was the suggestion that five bullets were fired allowed to
continue as a public assertion, uncorrected, when there were eight?
WHAT IS KNOWN: Only when the inquest was opened into Mr de
Menezes's death did it become known that more than five shots
had been fired. He was shot seven times in the head and once in
the shoulder. It has now been disclosed that 11 shots were fired by
two police officers. The three other bullets missed their target.
Why did Scotland Yard allow a number of assertions, now known to
be untrue, to stay in the public domain?
WHAT IS KNOWN: Earlier statements that Mr de Menezes was
wearing a padded winter coat at the height of summer, thereby
arousing police suspicions, continued to be repeated for several
days even though he was, in fact, wearing a denim jacket.
The original suggestion that he was wearing a heavy fleece seems
to have come from a witness on the train, Mark Whitby, but the Met
never corrected this.
It was also suggested, initially in a statement issued by Scotland
Yard, that ''he vaulted over the ticket barrier, ran downstairs and
on to a Tube, where it appears he stumbled''. It now transpires that
he was acting like a normal commuter, using his travel pass, and
hurrying towards the train only to avoid missing it.
According to the family's lawyers, the pathologist conducting the
post mortem examination on Mr de Menezes's body was told five
days later that he had vaulted the ticket barrier and run, even
though CCTV cameras apparently show he made his way slowly
down the escalator.
''Why was he not told the facts which clearly by then [July 27] must
have been available,'' the lawyers asked.
GM~Who? Us lie? You must be mistaken!
–--
“Restriction of free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions.” Wm O. Douglas
“Restriction of free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions.” Wm O. Douglas
