Sort of a lofty goal you set now isn't it, David?

 I think Pat, GA, and Kevin G have made some good posts recently. Dale is sort of another story, because although he's thrown in with these guys and brandishes his conservative veiwpoint on occasion...I don't think he's coming from exactly the same place...so if Dale "converts" I'm not so sure that'll be a big deal. I think I'd like to see David convert Pat or Kevin G...that's more of a challenge. GA...well I really don't know what to make of him. He made what I thought was a solid and thoughtful post a little while back where he explained his take on things...I think it was the kind of post Eric is always looking for from the conservative side. He also admitted he voted for Clinton...so...GA has crossed over before...not so sure it would be amazing if he did again.

Plus as far as I can tell GA is a buddy of Kravitz...who as we all know has a way with "catching someone's ear" as we all know. I wonder if GA sleeps well at night knowing Kravitz knows where he lives.

In any case, I have to agree with Dale on this one and say that just rehashing youthful bad behavior will not be enough to sway any voters. In particular, Pat or Kevin. There is no contest between Kerry and Bush when it comes to character issues. I think that Mr. Kerry is 10 times the man Bush could ever hope to be and their records indicate that...and maybe that's reason enough to discuss this stuff a little but it's not what I would see as a deciding factor. There are far too many other issues on the table that should concern all of us...Dale points out a few...that I think should and in good conscience would sway most people to vote for someone other than Bush.

The thing that baffles me the most is that more and more evidence continues to appear that says the Bush administration is one hell of a disaster and yet when it's brought up here the response from our few conservatives is usually that we're buying into:

1. Hate fueled crap fom the internet.

2. Liberal bias from the media.

3. Patisan hogwash from Democrats.

Now, none of those items...and this is usually Eric's complaint...address the facts and issues that have been put on the table. What they do is create an arena where there can be no debate or discussion because now the matter at hand is reduced to an issue of belief. Meaning the conservative in this case is just deciding not to "believe" whatever has been presented and accusing the other guy of "believing" whatever it is based on bias. That sort of ends any discussion.

Now this to me seems just useless because it makes no difference if the source presenting the information is Mr. Kay, Mr. Pelletiere, or Mr. Rove...if the info is damaging to a "belief" it's dismissed. How can that be?

I think that is when things turn nutty and hostile around here...when evidence is put on the table and it's very damaging. The response seems to become..."Well, I don't believe it." or "I'm sure Bush knows more than we do."  or even the one to me that seems the most insane "I'm sure he's doing it because he believes it's for the good of the country."

You know I think there are certain things that a person can do and should do because it's what they "believe in." It's just that stuff like, war, huge economic gambles, and the education and future of our children are decisions that should based on more than just "beliefs"...and it bothers me that the folks at Bushco keep selling what they are doing that way. See, common sense seems to tell me that they are motivated by more than just their beliefs...the most obvious factor that seems to explain their behavior is greed...not goodwill toward all mankind...but that's an argument that is destined for severe ugliness I'm sure.

If you "believe" in their "beliefs" and dismiss at least a discussion of the issues and facts that get presented that seem to indicate there are other rather large factors at play...well then I don't think there's any chance for an "amazing conversion".

That being said, I wish you luck on your mission David. It's a rightous one...but one hell of an uphill battle.

 Kevin, I'm glad you chose to stick around.

                                                                  Reg