"Whoa Nellie that was a mouthful. So you think this was all just a power play by Bush?" -PB

Yes, that's it, Pat. Bush referred to 9/11 as winning the trifecta and he did that because they saw the opportunity it presented them. They were never concerned with protecting Americans because they knew and promoted the idea that they could not protect us and the next 9/11 (or mushroom cloud) could come at any second. Protecting Americans never was on their agenda and their actions prove this beyond any words I or anybody else could type. They were thrilled that it opened the door to get at all the goodies, public funds that had not previously been available to them, expanding executive powers and decreasing accountability by claiming everything under the sun was central to national security and therefore a state secret beyond the reach of the law. It opened the door to invade oil rich Iraq and create a war that would be never ending and supported by private corporations because unlike the "good ol' days of WWII" the US Military no longer does everything for themselves, there is now a massive wasteful privatized army of corporate engineers, chefs, builders, truck drivers, firemen, laundry staff, and on and on and on and on that go in with our troops to do all the support work the military did in WWII. We pay them billions and billions more than we pay our own troops and this on top of opening Iraq to Big Oil creates a massive cash cow that your trickle down boys see as winning the lottery. If you can't grasp these simple concepts, Pat, then whoa is us. I'm not trying to beat you in an argument here, Pat, I'm just telling you this is how it is. I have nothing to win here...nothing...I don't want or expect to turn you into a Democrat. I win nothing, we both lose, and lose and lose. It just amounts to us sitting in the same cell and you're telling me how much better it would look with curtains on the window and I'm telling you we're in a fucking cell and who cares about curtains. Actually, there is a small difference between us...you have a son and I have no children. You are giving your son to this mess and I could not live with that. I think you are losing much more than me.

"Lets line the pockets of the good ole boys at Halliburton and implement electronic an global eavesdropping for shits and grins." -PB

Well, basically, yes, to the line the pockets thing and part two of that is sort of a sideshow. I'm not a paranoid nut, Pat, and this does seem how you'd like to paint me with your "9/11 Inside Job" stuff and "do you want to win the war on terror" crap.

"True enough that Bush has been a pussy on securing the borders" -PB

Well, ask yourself why, Pat. Why during his "War on Terror" would he do nothing about securing our ports and borders and in fact work to make our borders easier to cross? That's insane if you are claiming to be fighting a "War on Terror"...but see the problem is that the phrase is one letter off...Bush is not fighting a "War on Terror" he's having a "War of Terror" and we are the victims. He's not trying to protect us he's trying to make sure we have "Terror" on our minds.

"Don't know if you've been keeping up with the news but the tide is turning and we are making progress much to the chagrin of the MSM"

It's sort of funny how my original post was all about how the MSM is betraying us daily. Pat, we have nothing to win in Iraq. I'm not saying that to bash Bush, or you, or anybody else...we just have nothing to win there. The only way the tide turns for the United States is we get out of there. I'm not arguing with you, that's just all there is to it. Do I wish that you agreed with me, of course, but I can't make you do that so if anything maybe you think about this stuff a little more. I'm not the guy that's going to change your mind, I know that and I don't want to fight with you. It's all up to you brother...

"And what happens when the policemen go away?" -PB

History happens, Pat. What FDR would have said should happen, the Iraqis sort it out for themselves, without our blood and our money. People will die there as that happens...we can't stop that from happening now we only add to it, so why stay.

"Ahhh thanks Reg you used the magic word Policy which means the next word is..... yes you guessed it Diplomacy." -PB

You know, Pat, I typed a lot of words in my response to you and I never used the word diplomacy. Nobody has ever suggested being diplomatic with terrorists. That's loony talk radio stuff that they use to smear the Democrats. Once we left Iraq we would use diplomacy to deal with their government. We have always used diplomacy dealing with all foreign governments, even with Saddam. Terrorists are not a government though and there is no negotiating table to sit down at with them and talk things out. Terrorists due to them being a rogue entity that works in the shadows by definition eliminates diplomacy as a way of dealing with them. I've never suggested that, I've never heard anybody else suggest it except for nutjobs on the radio or tv that wanted to smear people and make crap up. I've never brought up diplomacy as a way to deal with terrorists, never. Our government made foreign policy mistakes which have led to our problems and our government and our media like to leave those off the table. We can't address the problem if we don't address it's roots.

"Well Diplomacy again."

Sorry, no, wrong again.

"Somehow I missed the part of that when I was watching these guys kill in the name of Allah."

Here's what you missed, watch the first minute and you'll hear why the terrorists attacked us.

"Why has this thing dragged on? Why Reg why." -PB

I answered that already, it's dragged on because that's what the Bush Administration wanted all along. As long as it drags on and on and on it's a money maker and the money all flows where they want it to flow. Trifecta...remember.

"And why did'nt WWII." -PB

Pat, I'm not going to type a WWII history lesson here but your facts are a mess. Suffice to say, WWII did go on for a long time because of the size of it and we did not "win" because we had the "balls" to drop atomic bombs on Japan. If you knew anything at all about that moment in time we had already defeated Japan when we dropped the atomic bombs on them. That did not "win" us anything either except a rather questionable entry in the history books. PK is correct and a lot more colorful than me.

"Our biggest stumbling block is that someone might get caught waterboarding to get some information. The only thing holding us back is us. We have to get over the fact that there is going to be collateral damage. Reg between the press, Congress and the ACLU we are never going to win this thing. We can't because we don't have the stomach for it." -PB

No offense, Pat, but that's all nonsense cribbed from talk show dipshits. In a sense I don't even consider that you talking to me because you are repeating verbatim all that insane talk radio gibberish. The Congress, media, and ACLU are losing the war...right, ok...well that translates to "liberals and Democrats" meaning "don't vote for them they are weak and won't protect you"...that's all a sales pitch that has nothing to do with what has gone on or is going on. Pat, open your eyes, the Bush Administration has done everything they wanted to do, they have tortured at will, they have grabbed anybody and everybody they wanted and flew them to private torture locations, they have jailed people without having cause or evidence, they did whatever the hell they wanted to do in Iraq and there are no "whiney liberals" over there for them to trip over. They used their secret surveillance program, they have claimed everything under the sun is a state secret or covered by executive privilege so they have had no accountability to anyone or anything. They expanded the powers of the executive branch, destroyed our justice department, weakened our borders, hindered and prevented every investigation and enquiry into what they have done, refused to testify under oath and they have done all of this for years now. The world is their oyster, Pat, get real. Nothing has stopped them or slowed them down. They did anything and everything they wanted in Iraq and the media and the ACLU and our congress did shit to stop them nor do they seem to have any power or interest in doing so. This stuff about the media, ACLU and congress losing the war is total hogwash. It's dragged on and on because as one Bushco Iraq planner said "there were 500 mistakes we could have made in Iraq, I just didn't know we were going to make all 500."

The Bush Administration is the cause of this dragging on longer than WWII, that's what they wanted...trifecta...game, set, and match. It's over, Bushco won, they have waterboarded to their black hearts content...nobody ever stopped them. The got caught here and there and the media broadcast what happened but they never stopped them from doing it...ever. They got away with everything, Pat, they are torturing people right now as they have been now for 6 years and it's all still going on and there is still no end in sight. The arguments in the media are a sideshow it has not slowed or prevented anything. The congress has sat on their thumbs and done nothing. Nothing...all the hearings they tried to hold...questions they tried to ask...it's all gone nowhere and Bushco just kept right on doing whatever they wanted. When did they stop them from doing something? When?

Pat, the truth is the media, the congress, and the ACLU have had no impact on the Bush Administration or how they have run the "War on Terror", they may have changed public opinion at times but Bushco has said countless times they don't give a shit about public opinion so that means nothing to them. It's remained business as usual...no change...Bushco has had a free hand and they don't have to answer to anybody...and still the war in Iraq drags on and on and on.

"So we send in Special Ops to take care of this?" -PB

Basically that's what I'm saying, yes. Terrorists work in secret, in the dark, their big weapon is you don't know when or if they are coming. One huge terrorist attack goes a long way toward keeping people afraid. Our government and media are helping the terrorists do their job because every day they tell us "they're coming, they are going to kill us" it's just been on repeat now for almost 7 years. To fight the terrorists you don't do it with giant military operations and declaring war on other countries...that's saying to them "Here we come! The war on terror today is in Iraq! Come get us!"

Do you see how stupid that is? If they thought Saddam may get involved with Osama they should have said nothing and begun an intelligence operation to snag him. Yeah, special ops, they don't know we're coming...that works in our favor. We have been fighting a war against terrorists like we fought WWII. We are invading countries and staging massive military operations that do nothing except cost money, lives, and announce to the terrorists this is where we'll be if you'd like to stop by and see us. The terrorists are not working in one country or working for one government. They are anywhere and everywhere in countries all over the world...that's the point they are not an army...it could be just 5 guys living in an apartment in Dallas. You don't send in an army to get 5 guys right? Of course not and if you do and you kill a whole shitload of innocent people in the process, guess what? You are going to be seen as the bigger bad guy than the 5 guys you were trying to get because you created a disaster trying to get them when common sense points to the fact that if you just snuck up on the 5 guys with maybe 5 of your guys you would have accomplished the task without wiping out half a city by carpet bombing them.

There are no political arguments in this, Pat, it's just common sense vs. sheer stupidity and let's face it sheer stupidity is winning big.