Pat,

Believe me, I do not believe if we fight fairly the other side will too. Not at all. Hell, I see this concept thrown out the window every day I go to work.

But what I do mean is, if American goverment is going to say we stand for one thing, then carry out acts of another, then we can't expect much.

Your thinking baffles me - on one had you seem to excuse torture because it is not as bad as what the Nazis did or make it seem that it is not bad if it does not reach that level, but then in the next paragraph say no one on the right condones torture.

The sad fact is, no one outside of the government knows what has went on at Gitmo. Heck, how many people held there is not even "offically" known. Though what we do know, in other places controlled by American soldiers at LEAST 27 prisoners have died and ruled as "homicides".

And answer me this - remembering the video feeds of Al Queda training camps that were played endlessly on the news a few years ago (you know, the monkey bars and emerging from foxholes) are you not suspicious at all of why every network showed the same clips over and over again? I mean, if these camps were as large and expanse as reported, don't you think we'd have seen more than the same bent monkey bars over and over again?

My point is, our government does things all the time to manipulate us, regardless of political parties. Shit, Clinton did it best by using a pure air war on the Balkans to later boast "not one American soldier was killed in that war".

Have you not heard of the Army's PSYOP (Psychological Operations) Unit?